Union Pacific Questions and Answers
UP's U50 Fuel Tender
(From an email to The Winged Shield group, dated May 11, 2000)
Q: You mentioned in your book about the proposal of fuel tenders from U-50s and you said this idea never made it past the drawing board. Do you know if it made the drawing board? and is there any proof of this drawing around as I would be interested in seeing what they would of came up with. (Jim Booth, Jr.)
A: I saw an engineering sketch that Greg Davies had when I was in Omaha in June 1978. About three weeks before, I had talked to Frank Accord in his business car here in Salt Lake and told him of my interest in a complete roster of UP's diesel locomotives. We spent an hour or so talking during which he told me about his experience in his early years as a mechanic working on UP's Shays at both Provo and Lynndyl. Then he invited me to see him in Omaha. I took him up on his invitation, and after a brief discussion in his office, he took me out into the open office area on the 9th floor and announced to all the people there that they were to help me in any way that I asked. He turned me loose in the Mechanical Department files. I copied lots of stuff off microfilm, and made a full legal tablet full of notes.
I also talked to Greg Davies in his office, and he invited me to his place that evening. While there, he showed me all of the stuff he was working on at the time, including files, photos, and drawings (I have a copy of the steam roster he was working on). One of the drawings was the one of a basic side view of the lower part of a U50 carbody, on the regular B+B trucks. The unit was cut off at the walkway level and there were two round fuel tanks mounted above that. I think the two tanks were 4,000 gallons each, likely being about the width of the former carbody. I don't remember a date on the drawing, but there was a note that the fuel tender was to be operated between two U28Cs, each upgraded to 3,000 horsepower. The traction motors on the fuel tender were all powered from the U28Cs. Since the U28Cs were still in favor, or at least not yet out of favor, I'm guessing that time period would have been about 1970-1971. Remember, it was only a proposal, and the drawing was likely meant to merely illustrate that proposal. That time period means that the silver … er, aluminum trucks <grin> were already established as the standard.
I was in Omaha two nights. On the second night, I spent about two hours with Lloyd Edson, who I had talked to several times in Salt Lake. Lloyd was my majority source of information for the research I did on the turbocharged GP9s, along with a lot of other information about UP's early diesel years, since he was first on the mechanical engineering staff in 1953. That night, he pulled out all his personal notes about the turbocharger projects, and my articles on the subject are based mostly on what he shared with me that night. A couple hours after meeting with Lloyd, I climbed aboard the westbound Amtrak SFZ. I was still with UP at the time, so the Amtrak trip was at no-cost (or maybe very low cost, I don't exactly remember).
UP's Aluminum (Silver) Trucks
(From an email to The Winged Shield group at YahooGroups)
Q: When did UP begin using aluminum paint of its locomotive trucks?
A: UP E9 943 was the first new unit with aluminum trucks. (Terry Kolenc, May 11, 2000)
A: UP 943 was new in May 1954, so that sounds about right (I'm embarrassed to say that the E units never occurred to me). With the propane turbine getting aluminum trucks in late May 1953, some of the other turbines getting them by mid 1955, and the GP9s getting them in 1957, the E9s getting them in 1954 makes a lot of sense. The GP9s of 1954 were delivered up to 248, in May 1954. UP 250-299 were delivered in August to September 1954, but they were freight units. Maybe the passenger units and turbines got aluminum trucks first because of their high visibility to the public. Look on page 199 of my 1934-1982 book. It shows UP E9B 945B new, with gray trucks, in April 1953. Page 186 has UP E9A 940 new in May 1953 with gray trucks. I'm guessing that in the collection in Omaha, there is likely a photo of the 943-947 group new, maybe with aluminum trucks. (Don Strack, May 11, 2000)
SD45 Trivia
(From an email to The Winged Shield group, dated May 20, 2000)
Q: Where is the radio antenna (firecracker) on an RCS SD45? I think it's aft of the radiator fans, but need to confirm this. (Gary Binder)
Q: What are the dimensions of the RCS antenna ground plane? It appears to have four support legs, am I correct? (Gary Binder)
A: Yes, it's at the rear of the radiator hatch, just behind the curved grab iron, but still on the hatch itself.
I measured one back 25 years ago, but I have since lost the sketch. The four support legs and roof mounting pieces were standard 1-1/2 angle iron. At Salt Lake, we had to cut the platform off to lift the units with the 250-ton crane because the platform interfered with the cross piece of the crane. If you look at photos of some units up close, you can see a weld line on the legs, about three to four inches above the roof.
On the platform itself, the outside edge that faced to the side of the unit was tapered from a 2-inch thickness at the center part where the support legs attached, out to 1-1/2 inches at the front and rear edges. If you can find a down-on shot, you can probably guess-imate the size of the platform by comparing it with the width of the cab roof. I think the platform is square.
Two-Window Windshields vs. Three-Window Windshields on SD60s
(From an email to the Streamliner group at YahooGroups, September 14 and 15, 2000)
Q: Does anyone know why UP has 2 different front window types on their SD60Ms? Some versions have the 2 piece North American style while others have the 3 piece Canadian style. Is there a reason UP has done this? (Spence Watson, September 14, 2000)
A: When we did the first SD60M's, we still had 3 and sometimes 4 man crews, as did the Canadians, where the 3-piece windshield (and sometimes a 4-piece windshield) was common. The reason was that with a 4-man crew and with everyone on the head end, the guy sitting in the middle seat can see ahead with the 3-piece windshield. With a two-piece design, he's staring at the center post. After the first couple of orders, we got new crew consist agreements that reduced the number of crew personnel to 2 or 3. With that, the center seat is usually unoccupied. No worry about the guy in the center seat being unable to see ahead. That was part of the reason for the change. The SD90MACII has a two-piece windshield that uses the same glass as the GE's. This does not apply to any SD60M's. (Steve Lee, September 15, 2000)
Were UP's SD24s delivered in time in 1959 to operate with UP's steam Big Boys?
(From a series of emails posted to The Streamloner group at YahooGroups)
Q: Is it just possible that the first SD24's - low noses, "Dependable Transportation" and all - actually made their early road trips through Cheyenne while Challengers and Big Boys were in their final days of service? Or were the steamers immediately retired in Cheyenne just prior to or on delivery of the first SD24's to Omaha/Council Bluffs? (David Garon, May 12, 2001)
A: I have never seen a photo of UP steam and SD24s side by side. We have all seen that magic date of July 1959 as being the end of steam on UP. But steam on UP really ended with the delivery in 1957 of the 50 GP9 cab units and 50 GP9B booster units in the 300-class. Sure, there was some last gasp runs during the peak periods over the next two years, but the end really was in 1957. West of Green River, and on the Kansas Division, the end came in 1954 with the delivery of the 75 GP9 cab units and 75 GP9B booster units in the 130-class. Steam only stayed on across the Wyoming Division east of Green River because fuel was cheap (as in free) and maintenance facilities were readily available. I worked with many shop mechanics who were laid off from Cheyenne in 1955-1956, coinciding with the opening of the Salt Lake shops in 1955. They were told that steam was dead on UP, and that if they wanted a job, there was work in the new Turbine and Diesel facility in Salt Lake City.
One piece of paper I'd like to see are the train sheets for Cheyenne during 1957-1959. I wonder how many steam locomotives were actually in regular operation during that time, and how many trains they operated on.
One of the projects I am working on is a locomotive directory for UP in 1955, showing steam and diesel, and turbine. 1954 was the pivotal year for motive power on UP. At the beginning of 1954, there were 879 steam locomotives and 758 diesel and turbine locomotives. At the beginning of 1955, the totals were 621 steam and 1,032 diesel and turbine locomotives. So a 1955 locomotive directory would show the year of change, 1954, very well. (Don Strack, May 13, 2001)
A: By that standard, we'd also have to change the "end of" dates for a host of other railroads, and we'd also have to apply it to diesels. For example, the "end" of the DDA40X's would have to be changed to 1980, the use of 25 of the units in 1984-1985 being just "last gasp runs."
You might be surprised to learn how much UP steam was in operation in eastern Wyoming, Western Nebraksa and northern Colorado in 1957-1959. The number of fans who kept track of such things was much smaller back then than it is today, and they didn't have the ability to broadcast the news like we do now, so a huge amount of stuff went relatively unnoticed except for the remaining UP records.
Cheyenne was still doing classified repairs on steam into 1956-1957, just at a much lower level of activity than previously.
The last formal retirements didn't take place until 1962. Formal retirement defined as retired from the roster per ICC requirements and written off as an asset after disposal, which usually meant sales for scrap or sale of the scrap if the company cut the engine up itself.
The July 1959 date is very well documented. It was the date the last 4-6-6-4 came into Cheyenne on a freight from North Platte, and the only UP steam that ran after that time was 844(4) and 3985.
UP used steam on the eastern end of the Wyoming Division into July of 1959 and used it in Colorado and Nebraska in 1957-1959, as well. the last months of operation of the 4000-series are documented in Ehernberger's books Sherman Hill and Big Boy Portraits, wherein he lists the trainsheet information for all Big Boy moves in June and July 1959 including the names of the engineers and firemen.
Like many railroads, UP expected and planned to operate steam sporadically into the early 1960's, and as such, they overhauled and maintained in "stored serviceable" status a number of locomotives. In the event, many of these locomotives were used only during grain rushes and other traffic peaks (some were never used at all), as there were several economic factors that got in the way, such as recessions and the steel strike.
Also, railroads figured out how to better utiltize their diesel fleets. One of the fears of many railroad managements at the time was that they would end up buying too many diesels, resulting in some expensive and relatively new motive power being stored during low-traffic periods, and they wanted to avoid that at all costs (the payments go on whether the units are stored or not). If you go back and read the trade press in the mid-to-late 1950's you will note a number of railroad CEO's predicting that at least some steam would remain on their respective railroads, at least in stand-by service, into the mid-1960's. In UP's case, by 1962 they understood that diesels and turbines could handle the load, so all of the stored steam was retired, except for 844. UP 844 was used on a
It is true that in all senses, UP never fully dieselized, as 844(4) was and is still active as far as the FRA and it's predecessor, the ICC are and were concerned. People can quibble about that if they wish but it's true, and the reports and paperwork remain on file in both Washington DC and Omaha to back it up.
Most people know that 844 was used as a snow melter in Council Bluffs in late 1959 and early 1960. The 3710 was used as a source of steam for a separate snow melting machine in the North Platte yards occasionally until 1967 or so. However, it was no longer a locomotive; it was classified as a piece of maintenance of way machinery and was numbered 900079. When it was no longer needed for this job, it was donated to the City of North Platte, which renumbered it 3977 (it's original number) and put it on display in Cody Park, where it remains today. I do not know if it moved itself and/or the melting machine in this service or not, but even if it did, it might have looked and sounded like a locomotive but for ICC and accounting purposes it was not. (Steve Lee, May 13, 2001)
A: Lloyd Stagner states that in 1959, "...eight 3700's [oil fired Challengers] worked between Cheyenne and North Platte between July 2 and July 23..." and this was the last "regular" use of steam. Some 4000's had been readied for service as well, but remained in storage during most of July. This was because traffic was hurt by a labour dispute in the steel industry, and the SD24's arrived as well. Management apparently expected traffic to recover sufficiently by September to warrant returning the big steam power to work, but the steel dispute persisted into November and by that time new diesel deliveries had obviated the need for steam. Approximately 30 serviceable steam locomotives were held in reserve during 1960, but the arrival of the GP20 fleet removed any need for their use. Do we know if any of the new SD24's in service North Platte- Cheyenne between July 2 and July 23, 1959?. (David Garon, May 14, 2001)
A: I have some engineer's time books from that period. The first record of a 400 is on August 4th (UP 403, 400B, 410B), Laramie to Rawlins on NWF. This engineer did not make any steam runs during this time or any time during 1959. He worked between Rawlins and Cheyenne. The vast majority of trains he ran were diesel or turbine during this period. There was some steam recorded. He seemed to have been high enough on the seniority list to get all road jobs including some passenger runs. I think he had some east bound runs with SD24's as well. Of course he was only one guy. I don't know about the rest. (Steve Solombrino, May 15, 2001)
A: I remember lines of steam engines waiting to be scrapped in Pocatello in the late 50's (ca. 1958-1959). Dad was a fireman then and I remember going with him on high nose GP and cab unit four-axle units. I don't remember SD's around here until the early 60's but I was too young at that time to understand or care about the details of what they were. I do recall Dad telling me that Idaho had a tax penalty for UP if they brought new power into the state so they didn't bring units here until they were some number of years old. (Randy Norton, May 15, 2001)
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